I’m a fan of Blue Weims. I even have a website dedicated to them. So when I received a copy of the new article, “Tracing the origin of ‘the blue Weimaraner’ dogs by molecular genetics” by WM Gerding, S Schreiber, G Dekomien and JP Epplen Journal of Animal Breeding and Genetics first published online: 22 Sep 2010, I was excited to see what the article said.
After decades of argument over the origins of the Blue Weimaraner and knowing how this issue had almost torn the Weimaraner Club of America in two, it is seriously significant to be able to put some questions to rest. On the other hand, I shrug my shoulders and think, what does it matter? What’s really changed?
Blue Weimaraner. Photo courtesy of Leslie Nicole.
The crux of the “Blue Debate” has always been whether the first Blue Weimaraner, Cäsar von Gaiberg was the product of a cross breeding or of a spontaneous genetic mutation. In a nutshell, the Blue Weimaraner is accepted in the United States as a purebred Weimaraner with a disqualifying fault, but the rest of the world does not recognize the color.
In their article published in the Journal of Animal Breeding and Genetics last week, German scientists looked at DNA samples from 24 Blue Weimaraners and one Gray Weimaraner from two Blue parents. They also looked at 20 unrelated Grays. Most of these dogs were from German pedigrees.
The authors first verified what breeding records have shown all along: the B allele is what determines whether a Weimaraner is blue or gray. After examining other candidate genes, they looked at the TYRP1 gene (the B gene) and showed that Grays had two mutant (non-functioning) TYRP1 (B) alleles, and all Blues showed at least one functioning TYRP1 allele. Thus, Grays are bb and Blues are Bb or BB, and the blue coat color is dominant to the gray color in Weimaraners. See my page on Blue Weimaraner genetics to learn more about how the coat color is inherited.
To delve further, the authors were also able to mark and identify a unique intron (non-coding section of the gene) linked to this functional B allele in the Blues only; they were not present in the Grays. Based on this haplotype (a combination of alleles transmitted together) at least two mutations would have been necessary for a spontaneous reversion from Gray back to Blue.
The scientists also looked a the Y chromosome haplotypes of the Blues and Grays. In Grays there are four different Y chromosome haplotypes. The Blues share three of these, but the scientists indentifed a new Y chormosome haplotypes in the Blues which were not present in the German Grays.
The group then looked at a Gray 8th generation male descendent of Cäsar von Gaiberg, the acknowledged progenitor of Blues in the United States. Because this male was followed through the pedigree via his male ancestors back to Cäsar, the original Y haplotype should have been transmitted through these 8 generations. Of note, this 8th generation male Gray descendent of Casar had this unique haplotype.
HOW this unique haplotype was introduced, whether from a cross breeding or not, was not studied here. The authors do say, “a different Y chromosomal haplotype could also be taken as an argument for cross-breeding, where a dog with diverging TYRP1 and Y chromosomal haplotypes was introduced into the Weimaraner population before or after the presence of the anecdotal Blue Weimaraner.”
So what does this mean? What has this paper proven? Technically, all this paper did was confirm what we knew from breeding records; that the B gene is responsible for the coat color difference between Blue and Gray Weimaraners. This has now been confirmed with genotyping. They were also able to conclude that the Blue Weimaraner’s origins come partially from an introduction of a “typical 377 -bp TYRP1 haplotype potentially along with a unique Y-chromosomal haplotype” which strongly suggests cross breeding.
While it is satisfying to have some hard answers proven in the lab in order to quiet some of the debate on the origins of the Blue Weimaraner, what does it really change? The overwhelming signficance of this paper in my mind is that it DOES put to rest misinformation, ”historical” anecdotes. But the practical question isn’t how the Blue Weimaraner came to be… The Blues are still here, and for all intents and purposes are considered a variety of the traditional Gray Weimaraner. The colors have been interbred for over 60 years, and Blues are registerable with the AKC, and as such are considered purebred Weimaraners. While this article provides compelling argument that Cäsar was the result of a cross breeding, today’s Grays and Blues are so intermingled, even outside the U.S., Blue Weims still remain the red headed step child… so nothing has really changed. The question is what do we do about it?
What do you think?
About justweims
Thanks so much for this info on this recent study. I am facinated by the Blue Weim. After having Weims since I was a kid in the mid to late 60s throughout my life, my current pup reminds me more of that older breed of Weim. While I loved all of my Weims, our Blue Weim has an air of sophistocation and wisdom that seems to have been lost. Maybe one day they will recognize the Blues and bring some much needed calm back in the breed. Many breeders I know would never speak Blue, maybe one day they will.
While I personally prefer the grey color dogs, I see no reason why the AKC shouldn’t accept the Blue as a separate variety. After all there are three different colors of cocker spaniels in the Sporting Group. What’s up with that?
If the DNA research has proven that the blue is the result of a cross breed being introduced into the Weimaraner population and if the 8th generation male which understandably would have a watered down version of both the blue dog and the grey Weimaraner genetics is accepted then really it might now be time to accept that they are two different breeds and time to do what is right for the dogs future rather than the personal agenda of individuals who wish to keep the Weimaraner title.
The facts are that the Blue despite having fanciers in America and a few in Europe are sadly for the majority in the hands of puppy farmers whose only interest is the fee they can generate as a ‘rare’ colour being sold to people who have little interest in the dog and its abilities but more in the short term fashionable commodity that the dogs have sadly become. Bitches being bred back to back some registered some not. Studs being offered at silly prices to any and all bitches so long as the fee is paid on less than reputable websites.
No dog deserves to be a fault of one breed when it could be the star of its own. No dog deserves to be in the hands of puppy farmers just to suit the preferences of a few individuals who wish the keep the Weimaraner title. The bigger picture is a dog that deserves a future in the hands of enthusiasts not puppy farmers. A new name, a new breed will give people with an interest an opportunity to own a blue without losing their credibility within the Weimaraner community. Help us to help these dogs out of puppy farmers hands!!
The German Club have the right as the originators of the breed to decide the fate for the Blue and it has been made very clear that they do not consider it anything more than a cross breed, it is not a Weimaraner and as such no matter what the feelings of fanciers in the US this situation is not going to be changed. The rest of the world take their standard from the Germans.
Time for owners and fanciers of the Blue to stand up for this beautiful dog forget the past and look to the future. DNA can’t be wrong.
Hi Anne,
Very useful information and I believe from your editorial that you are of the opinion that Casar was the result of a mixed breeding, which is as the Germans have insisted in their Stud Book. This therefore confirms their decision not to recognize the Blue Weimaraner as correct. I would suggest if you were wanting the Blue to be recognized in the States (apart from being allowed to be bred from) you would need to campaign the W.C.A. in the same way as the Longhair Weimaraners are doing at present. Whilst the longhair is recognized all over the world in the show ring and for breeding the Blue is not.
The U.S. is the only country that does not recognize the Weimaraner Longhair in the show ring. It seems from the outside looking in that the U.S. in total reverse of the rest of the Weimaraner world.
Tasha, Liz… Indeed this article to me very strongly suggests that Casar von Gaiberg was a cross bred dog, and other anecdotal evidence also points in that direction. I do not know what the answers are, but with Blues behind 99% of the Weims out there, what do we do about an entire population of Weims that are cross bred or “not correct”? We still have the same problem as we did before this paper came out, at least here in the US…… Thanks for your comments, ladies. It’s particularly interesting to hear from those in other countries!
reference please
Sorry the reference wasn’t so obvious in the text of the post (but it is there)…. It is currently in online format advance of print.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1439-0388.2010.00888.x/abstract
Gerding, W., Schreiber, S., Dekomien, G. and Epplen, J. , Tracing the origin of ‘blue Weimaraner’ dogs by molecular genetics. Journal of Animal Breeding and Genetics, no. doi: 10.1111/j.1439-0388.2010.00888.x
Another point –
If Casar were a cross bred dog sired by a Doberman, and if blue Dobermans were rare back then (which I believe is the case) then Casar would have been black not blue since he would have inherited the dominant D gene. Maybe the B gene was introduced prior to Casar, as the authors suggest as a possiblity.
Well, they’ve gone most of the way. If they really want to see if the Blues come from a Doberman cross, they could go back to the line of Dobermans that were present and see if they carry the same gene, and check with a line of unrelated Dobermans to exclude its presence there. That would be a way to really prove the point one way or the other. Without that, we’re still all blundering about in the dark.Another possibility would be a mt-DNA study, if there are the right test kits to do that in dogs to the resolution level necessary. That’s a master’s thesis waiting to happen somewhere.
One thing to remember is that while they have identified that Casar was probably from a cross-breed, the study can not show if it was the first Blue. I’ve spoken to sources who say it is possible that Blues may have existed unofficially all along. I’ve often mused if after the war when there were so few Weims left if Blues were all that rarer.
At any rate, it doesn’t matter. Personally, I think we should be accepted as a variation, but that’s unlikely to happen, so I agree that we should be a new breed, but that’s not as easy as it sounds. It’s easy to be an armchair commentator. After 8 years of dedication, I can tell you actually making progress is another matter.
Tasha, there is no big agenda to try to keep Blues as Weimaraner to serve our own interests. Maybe at the puppy mill level, but those people wouldn’t take the time to read these blogs and articles anyway. I’m assuming we’re talking about people (like me) in the “Blue Movement.” Most people I know are ready to go for new breed. People don’t realize the ENORMOUS (Did I mention ENORMOUS!!) amount of energy it takes to create a new breed – especially internationally. This more than half a century in the making situation can not sit on the backs of a few volunteers. The entire Weim community should be helping.
Unless we get Bill Gates or Prince Charles suddenly interested in saving the Blue – gone are the days when most of us can afford to keep a huge kennel of dogs for selective breeding. Even running a blog or trying to run a breed club with 2 people doing all the work is a lot of work. It doesn’t help our efforts at all to be hampered by the prejudice that makes others afraid to help.
The weim community should help – should help to facilitate with a boot-strap or transitory program. Blaming those few blue supporters crazy enough to give it a try regardless of the extreme prejudice and work is not where fresh venom or effort should be concentrated.
After years of trying and trying to believe “we the few” could make changes, I’m starting to really think we can’t do this alone. Perhaps I’m a dreamer, but I think the infrastructure and official clubs need to help. Set aside cherished hatreds and roll up your sleeves and help.
Some Comments Concerning Revisions to the AKC Weimaraner Standard: 1944-Present
by Elizabeth J. Wood (May 1992; rev. 10-98, 5-99)
(this is not the whole article but you see it here at this link
http://www.weim.net/twn/General/EWood%20-%20StandardRevisions%285-92essay%29.htm
[15]I am referring to the remark made on p. 31 of “Weimaraner Coat Genetics — Part 2″: “Of course, some years ago, the German Weimaraner Breed wardens determined that the so called “blue” Weimaraner was produced exactly in this manner” [my emphases].
[16]By 1953 Casar von Gaiberg had sired at least eight champions, though his name has been omitted from the WCA’s “Honor Roll of Top Producing Sires” The foundation bitch of “Valmar” Weimaraners, Ch. Von Gaiberg’s Anna Schwenden, was a descendant of Casar von Gaiberg through both her sire and dam. The “Hoot Hollow” line was founded on Ch Wetobe’s Ballerina Ribbons, who was descended from Casar through her dam, Ch Wetobe’s Ballerina Deb. Weimaraners featured by such kennels as “Smokey City” and “Silversmith”, which are bred upon Valmar and Hoot Hollow lines, are likewise “blue” descendants. Many kennels could be added to this list. A 12th generation “blue” descendant of Casar von Gaiberg is no more cross-bred than any of his 12th generation “gray” descendants, no matter how you wish to look at it.
I remember talking to Sylvia Vroon (www.weimaranerpedigrees.com ) who actually told me most EVERY Weimaraner pedigree in some point goes back to Casar. Therefore, ALL Weimaraners in the USA and Germany would not be considered “True” Weimaraners if you choose to look at it this way.
You can see the grays or silvers if you wish, are descendents of blues as well in their foundation. As stated above ” A 12th Generation “Blue” descendant of Casar von Gaiberg is no more a cross-bred than any of is 12th generation “gray” descendants, no matter how you wish to look at it.”
Going back to an earlier post that one person’s blue is more sophisticated and wise than her grays, I’ve got the counter-argument to that. My blue is a total doofus! He’s good-hearted, but has about two brain cells to rub together and an attention span of about two seconds. Physically he alternates between impossibly graceful and a train wreck (I’ve seen him fall going up stairs). He’s eight years old.
By contrast, my gray Weim was one of the most focused and thoughtful dogs I’ve ever met. An amazing athlete, serious about what he saw as his “job” (keeping an eye on me) and bombproof in every situation I tried him in.
I have been a great lover of the Wiems since I was a youngster. My family had what most call greys, but I always thought they like a dusty gold.
A short time ago my family got a blue. Maggie is a true loving Weim, and I think she is as great as any grey. My biggest gripe is the reaction I get from Weim snobs who, as soon as I say my Weim is a blue, they act throughly disgusted. Blues are not a lesser Weim, but a great addition to a great breed.
I wouldn’t trade Maggie for a grey any day. I love any Weim, but don’t hate a blue out of snobbery.
Thanks for the synopsis of the German article. Too bad it wasn’t more conclusive.
I keep hearing that there are less than reputable breeders associated with Blues. I’ve never seen a blue in a pet store. It hasn’t been easy find a Blue breeder, good, bad or otherwise in the UK. Who are these bad breeders and where are the puppy mills? Seems to me the BWCOA should identify them and warn others?
I have a very much loved now eleven year old grey weimaraner with a lovely temperament. Over the years I have sadly met a lot of grey weimararners who are far more temperamental and some who are vicious – particularly towards other dogs. Can someone please give me some information about the general temperament of the ‘blue’ weimaraner?
Blues are no different than the Grays in temperament. They tend to take after their parents in basic temperament and of course the work the owner puts into the dog is reflected in their temperament as well. If you are considering a Blue, I would be sure to find an ethical breeder that is going to consider proper temperament as a criteria for breeding.
I own a 2 year old grey Weim – a lovely example of his breed, and a smart, loyal, trainable hunting companion and house pet. I looked into the breed thoroughly before I selected his breeder. I have nothing personal against the blue Weimaraners and find them equally (not more! equally) attractive. Yet I feel strongly that I will never support the blue color “fanciers” by owning one.
As I see the issue, it is one of preserving what makes the breed unique. A blue coat is found in other dogs, Great Danes being a good example, and as such is not special or distinctive. The dilute chocolate coat of the grey Weimaraners is what makes the breed truly unique, and the dominant B allele threatens this. If the “blue” trend continues, eventually (yes, you may argue that it would take hundreds of years, but history will tell), the gray Weim will be no more and we will have only blues. The grey will be lost and this would be sad.
Perhaps I am wrong in this, but I think not based on my reading on this site. Of course, I am not a geneticist, nor a dog breeder, just a huge fan of the breed – the breed known as “Grey Ghost” for a reason.
Respectfully,
Gabrielle
Alberta, Canada
Gabrielle,
After reading this piece and all of it’s comments, I couldn’t find the words to describe what I wanted to say. . . then I read your post! There should be no recognizing a blue. The “Grey Ghost” is just that, and it is what truly makes heads turn when you are walking your weim down the street. If the blue color “fanciers” would like to make an effort to create a new breed (perhaps called Blau Gespenst), go right ahead, but don’t ask for support from people who don’t want blues to be included in the Weimaraner standard. You can talk and talk about genetics and breeding until your blue in the face (pun intended), but either way, the ones who have set out before us, the ones with the credentials, clearly knew what they were doing. If they didn’t we’d have a 2nd weim breed.
Thank you for your very informative article. Being part of the Weimaraner community my husband and I would strongly agree that a new breed for the Blue should be established. The long discussion about whether Blues should be included in the Weimaraner name or not could be put to rest. I could be wrong but how was the Weimaraner initially developed ? Wasnt there some crossbreeding to end up with the Weimaraner?
As I said before we are proud owners of stud bloodline Weimaraners but do feel that the Blue should be recognised just as the Long hair is recognised.
And if the only way is to start a new breed then we should maybe head in that direction.
Feel free to keep me up to date or how we can get involved in this.
Greetings